hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .
during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .
both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .
jhine,
What makes you think that the writers of Colossians were correct or that they knew what they were talking about?
Nobody knows what was originally written in any Biblical document. No one. And it is possible there was no single original. given their procedures.
Doug
hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .
during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .
both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .
Was Jesus a human?
Did a spirit being enter Mary's egg and take over?
Does the Watchtower have its own "Trinity" of Spirit Being => Human => Spirit Being, with continuity but no continuity?
What was resurrected?
hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .
during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .
both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .
Absolutely, the context is paramount.
You need to identify the groups that wrote each of these passages. In the case of John's Gospel, the anonymous writers were from a community of Jews who had a high Christology; hence they were ostracised from the conservative group.
In the case of Colossians, they were a very spiritualising community, with strong ideas about a spirit world. BTW Ephesians is an expansion of Colossians. (Paul did not write either Colossians or the subsequent Ephesians.)
Thirdly, I recommend that you identify the chiasms of each passage. These will reveal the key message.
Finally, Michael was an invention of the latter Second Temple period, when they created a spirit world and gave names to these beings (Mastema, Michael, Gabriel, Azazel, Satan, etc.). Diabolos (Devil) was introduced from the Greek when they translated the LXX.
The Book of Daniel was composed during that latter Second Temple period. In common with other writings of the 3rd and 2nd century BCE, they assigned the writings to past heroes (Enoch, Daniel, etc.)
Yes, context, both in terms of grammatical structure (chiasms, particularly), the creating community's is vital -- not hanging onto a single word in isolation and ignoring their idiomatic meaning that they gave to concepts at their time (not in ours).
Doug
if you like pictures with quotes, then search with this at google images:.
cure-for-christianity knockout quote.
doug.
If you like pictures with quotes, then search with this at Google Images:
cure-for-christianity knockout quote
Doug
the watchtower september 1, 1951, in a wonderful article entitled “hated for his name”(pp518,519) describes the persecution and martyrdom of steadfast christians in the first 3 centuries ad.. “by the year (a.d.) 64 christianity was prominent throughout much of the roman empire, including the capital city rome itself.
their individual characteristics, form of worship and steadfast refusal to compromise thereon had madethe christians sure targets of hostility and ridicule.
that year, the tenth in the reign of emperor nero, rome was swept by a conflagration so great it is yet the object of poetry and legend....diocletian assumed the crown a.d. 284.. at first he seemed friendly to the christians, but in the year 303 he gave in to persuasion and opened the tenth persecution, probably the most ferocious of all.
The WTS is able to make such bald assertions because people in general remain ignorant of the reality of the complex situation during the Church's early centuries. I do not know where they got those figures but their simplistic description belies the realities. As an example, during that period professed Christians were killed by other Christians, including beheadings, because of their doctrinal differences. Not unlike the current internal ructions within the Islamic sects.
In some instances, Christians begged the courts to sentence them to death, as they wished to share in Jesus' death.
Good books on the complex politics at play include: "Jesus Wars: How Four Patriarchs, Three Queens, and Two Emperors Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 Years", by Philip Jenkins, and
"A New History of Early Christianity" by Charles Freeman (see Chapter 20: "Victims or volunteers: Christian Martyrs").
Doug.
it brings to mind my niece when she see`s how dry the countryside is ,how armageddon must be so close..
I live to the east of Melbourne, close to the Dandenong Ranges. At times an idiot firebug decides to set it alight, but fortunately not so far.
We have smoke from either NSW or Gippsland, which I am wary of, given my chronic bronchitis (picked up during the chemo). So I do not take my daily walk when the air is smoky.
Doug
please share this question.
why is he spiritual israel not innumerable?.
the literal seed of abraham was innumerable (heb 11:12; gen 22:17; 1ki 4:20).
The WTS separated the 144,000 from the Great Crowd since at least as early as 1931, when Rutherford introduced the term "Jehovah's witnesses" (lower case "w"), he applied the term solely to the 144,000. The "other sheep" went by different names, such as "Jonadabs".
So he would have made a clear differentiation.
It was not until after his death in 1942, that the WTS extended the term "Jehovah's Witnesses" to the remainder.
Of course, if the number 144,00 is to be taken literally, then the number 12,000 from each of the named 12 Jewish clans must likewise be taken as literal. Not that the tribes' names is literal.
My reading of Revelation 7:1 and 7:4 says the 144,000 are on earth while Rev 7:9 says the Multitude are standing before the throne in heaven.
Doug
i found this video interesting, from the smithsonian channel.
it explains how commonplace crucifixions were with specific mention of the patebelum crosspiece.
https://www.smithsonianchannel.com/videos/crucifixion-became-a-very-popular-roman-spectator-sport/69754?an=history.
In Appendices of its translations of the Greek Scriptures (“New Testament”) the WTS provides a picture of a man attached to a single pole. This, they claim, is the manner of Christ’s execution. This picture, they explain, comes from the book De Cruce Liber Primus: “This is the manner in which Jesus was impaled” (Kingdom Interlinear, page 1155).
This is not impalement, in which the instrument of death is forced up through the victim’s body.
Most important is the fact that the WTS totally misrepresents what Justus Lipsius wrote.
He actually provided a number of illustrations, showing several such methods of execution. Lipsius concluded his research by saying that the conventional cross, in which a crosspiece is attached to a pole, was the implement used in Christ’s death.
It does not matter if Lipsius was right or wrong. What matters is that the WTS deliberately misreported Lipsius and that it hides factual evidence from its followers. Why should a stake be worshipped?
If it does this with an non-essential matter, how does it behave with critically important matters?
I obtained the pictures in the following PDF from an original book by Justus Lipsius, held in the State Library of Victoria, Melbourne.
https://jwstudies.com/Pictures_from_Lipsius_de_Cruce_Liber_Primus.pdf
Doug
i am in the process of preparing a study that will include the impact of second temple judaism.
it will take me a few more months to complete.. early draft material on part of my study, dealing with aspects of the transmission of the text, is available at:.
https://jwstudies.com/transmission_of_the_text.pdf.
Half Banana,
I went back to my source and after more careful reading of it, I have decided to drop that para. Thank you.
The author, David Trobisch, starts out with the position that the "New Testament" was a carefully edited publication from the outset, writing that it "must have been published before 180 CE" (Kloppenberg, page 162). That assumed position colours the balance of his chapter and it represents an unwarranted and unnecessary diversion. (See the entry on David Trobisch in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Trobisch )
So I thank you for your help.
Doug
i am in the process of preparing a study that will include the impact of second temple judaism.
it will take me a few more months to complete.. early draft material on part of my study, dealing with aspects of the transmission of the text, is available at:.
https://jwstudies.com/transmission_of_the_text.pdf.
Thank you Half Banana,
I will address this. Greatly appreciated.
I do not think the Roman Church was dominant in the 4th century. Up to that time, the centre would have been in North Africa (Alexandria, Carthage). My understanding is that Christianity moved northwards following Islamic invasions, thus converting Christianity into a European religion.
Doug
